Humanizing Digital Media w/Matt Scott

So I did a lot of sports streaming, a lot of music streaming, et cetera. And then moved into heavy tech, banking systems, anti-money laundering systems, CIS, customer information systems. Not by any means developing it, but just working with people who did. And so understanding software marketing and how that relates to customers and so on. But ultimately, around 12 years ago, I finally realized, I circled back to my passion. Because I'm a creative person by heart. And I set up my first startup. It lasted 14 months. It was called IGENERATION. We did Google Earth and Maps technology to visualize the story of donations around the world. We did Greek E-learning, interactive video, commerce, community projects in Greek and English.

We did hyper-local TV models. And then suddenly a very big PLC, public company in the UK, which was the biggest independent media group in the UK, came in from my company on the back of another company that I was working with. So having had all those experiences in media marketing and tech. And being able to circle back to what I loved the most, which was creative and content, I was suddenly a pretty young director of a public company, which then taught me a lot of new things around share prices and web lists and creative accounting, let's say. And having had that experience, look, I ended up doing my earnout and finishing there. But I had this passion for, again, advancing my creative ambitions, which was wrapped in technology, wrapped in new innovative content formats.

AR:
Yeah, because I feel like, and I'd love to hear your perspective on it and what the philosophy is behind Play Human, but I feel like I used to be very involved in marketing agencies, and it's almost like they've become a little bit cookie cutter in terms of the way they execute on a marketing strategy. It's like, okay, let's check off the boxes. We have social media, Facebook, Twitter, et cetera. Let's just create an image and then put some words on it and then a call to action. I know that some of these things are important, but it seems like we've lost touch with the creative element, and maybe it's because it's very difficult and it's hard to quantify how well you do when it comes to creative. So how does Play Human address that? Especially when it comes to when a client asks to see results and obviously nothing is guaranteed. So how do you kind of play in that space while maintaining that passion and creativity?

MS:
Yeah. Well, actually that's sort of dovetails into the last part of that story, which is I'd never worked in agency land. So actually I didn't have the programming. I didn't have those experiences or tracks to follow. Now, that caused in the early days of Play Human, it caused issues because it wasn't cookie cutter. Because it was expensive for us, and we didn't have the margins in mind. We had the creativity in mind and the human interaction in mind, and the end results for the client in mind. I won't ever regret that, by the way. And how we circumnavigated that was by using efficiencies, which we can talk about AI later, but using efficiencies in the process and working on those things. Giving us more time to be creative, to be effective for the end result. So things like, and these are important in terms of Play Human, recycling.

We've got a whole big world online of junk, the way we have in real world. So we create and we create and we create and we create and we create. We don't think of recycling. We don't think of the gold that we're sitting on. Think of Netflix, think of all the streamers, think of YouTube, think of all the creators and what they produce, all the corporate brand pieces and stories. They never look inside the box. They always look for something new. Well, it's a continual story, a continual narrative. So it starts with what you have in a different way. So that's part of the way that we negate the issues you've brought up.

AR:
Got you. So in your bio, you state your mission is to transform how creators, brands, and media owners engage with audiences. So how do you do that?

MS:
Look, the whole industry is the creator economy, big media, it's all based on linear formats. We're still just watching ultimately, or listening. And we've had that since childhood, haven't we? We were brought up on watching the screens. Now it's a bunch of devices. Now it's a bunch of different types of channels, but they're still doing the same thing, right? It's a linear format with linear thinking and linear producers producing linear content. Things like influencer marketing and creators. Well, we had those before the internet. We've always had influencers and heroes and whatever else. So when I say we are looking to empower creators or help build better formats or work with audiences, it's about the essence of play. The essence of play is participation. So where did that go?

AR:
So Matthew, what does it mean to be human in terms of both technology and media? Because a lot of complaints these days around some of the content produced is that it's becoming less human or maybe more scripted or more phony feeling. And humans are remarkable at detecting when something isn't truly authentic. So how do you kind of wade in there?

MS:
Well, again, if it's a two-way conversation, if it's a two-way narrative, then you're kind of circumnavigating those issues a little bit. You mentioned authenticity, and humans are very good, people are very good at sniffing out things that are inauthentic. So... Sorry. There was some noise behind me that stopped me there. Can I just start that sentence again? So humans are very good at sniffing out things that aren't authentic, but if you give them the tools and give them the voice and give them the opportunity to look eye level and communicate eye level, whether it's one-to-one or from a brand, from a creator, from a corporation talking to its audience, if it's a two-way dynamic, you know it's real.

AR:
So what would qualify as a two-way dynamic? Because a lot of marketing content is simply a one-way thing. They record something, they put it out there. Is it the conversation around it that's important?

MS:
That's a brilliant question. So it's how the format is structured. And it's basically the same way we're having a conversation. You're asking me questions and I'm giving you feedback, and I can ask you questions back. There's a two-way dynamic. So the same way that you can ask your audience, "What do you think about this product? What do you think about that initiative? What would make your life easier? How can we..." Those are all starting points for narratives that are two-way.

AR:
How would a marketing campaign look like that takes advantage of this two-way interaction?

MS:
Well, so what you do is you use the technology, empower yourself and empower your brand with the technology. Have live focus groups on Facebook, have interactive content on YouTube or other platforms. Have narratives that people can contribute back to. Story chaining, for example. I'll start because I'm the brand or I'm the creator, or I'm the expert. I'll give you a piece of thought leadership. We should introduce more sustainability into the world. Discuss. Then you do your video than the next customer does their video. Do you see what I mean? And suddenly you've created a loop of narrative and conversation.

AR:
Yeah, I've seen where people would take existing videos and add to it or respond to it or react. Reaction channels are very popular nowadays. I guess that's partially why Twitter now called X is so successful because you can put out a message as a brand and people instantly interact with it. And there's very little friction. So maybe that is the future. Actually, that brings us to our next point, which is AI. So in the age of AI, I feel like I'm seeing more often a lot of generic content. There are bots now that post. On Twitter. I mean, that's always been the case. But on Reddit for example, people are posting memes that are, again, not very creative, not very original, and people are responding negatively to it. So do you feel like there's a lot of quantity over quality? And what does that do to humanity or society? I know that's a very broad question, but what do you think?

MS:
Well, what I think is, my sort of feelings on certainly AI's contribution potential and threat around content and marketing and narratives is sort of mixed. One is, I mean, obviously we've got a fantastic opportunity. AI to me is, in production generative AI is about efficiencies. We've got to remember that AI was still made by human beings. And we've got to remember that actually the empowering of human beings was probably on the first sheet when we created machine learning and AI. Now, like all things, in the same way you can create cheap cars or cheap sodas, cheap clothing, that doesn't mean that you don't want to buy quality. It doesn't mean that you don't want to have quality conversations. What it does is it actually, if you create efficiency with AI, it allows you the freedom to create better quality. Do you see what I mean?

So we have to get in that dynamic. Use it for efficiency. And I use it. My guys use it in post-production and so on. For example, audio quality tools. Like in post. If I'm talking like I'm in a phone box and down the crappy Wi-Fi to you, well, I can give Michelle the tools to clean it right up as if I'm eloquently talking into the microphone like this. You see what I mean? So there's all sorts of efficiencies from AI. There's always been the cookie cutter accelerators in every sector you can imagine, but it's going to actually accentuate and make quality a premium that we all aspire to.

AR:
So then in that case, it doesn't sound like your audience will necessarily care if it's AI generated as long as it's high quality.

MS:
No, that's again, you're really skirting on brilliant themes here because think of it this way, and because unfortunately it's not as simple as that. Do we care when we play games and we have characters in games that are all generated? And in fact, in the gaming industry, we're trying to get more real life.

AR:
Immersion.

MS:
Yeah. But in streaming and live action, dramas and things, we feel a little more cheated, the more artificial it is, especially with character generation. So it's a kind of strange dynamic. Remember as well, think of genres and themes. I think that's where the answers are. They're different for different genres and themes. If you and I are producing a romantic comedy, do we really want the characters generated? Do we really want the storylines generated? If we're producing a fantasy, kingdom against kingdom battle like Game of Thrones or something else, do we care that the sweeping landscapes are generated by computers? We don't. Do we?

AR:
Yeah, and I always joke around with people and say that I'm just a very advanced AI anyway. So I think that the better AI gets, the less people will care, as long as it is up to the standards that humans have obviously created. And our standards continuously evolve. But I think as long as we're working harmoniously with the technology to create that high standard.

MS:
Well, I want to flag something really important in this space. Where I get passionate and crass and all those things, emotional about it, is actually at the actor level. Look at what's happening on the streets in the West Coast and so on. Across America. Actors are fighting for all sorts of rights and all sorts of equalities. Now, it's not a political point. The point is that part of the conversation is about image rights. The ability to take Brian Cox's likeness in perpetuity and create 59,000 series of Succession. You know? F off. F off. F... You know what I mean? So that's not right. That's not right at all.

AR:
Yeah. It raises some very interesting privacy and intellectual property questions. I'm sure that over time we're going to make massive changes on what's acceptable and what's not. But I think in the beginning, it's going to be rough.

MS:
It's going to be a really tipsy-topsy journey. But as you've alluded to, that's the tip of the iceberg. It's like, what else are we going to try to do? I mean, I know that we've already tried to put James Dean into a movie even though he died over half a century ago. In fact, way more than that. We've put historical... We're going to have John Wayne movies again, and we're going to have Marilyn come back maybe and act with Margot Robbie. And that sounds interesting. And again, in the right context, that would be pretty cool.

AR:
We'll create new legends, and it's very fascinating. I don't know how it's going to play out, but...

MS:
Well, I think, again, the authenticity piece. I mean, if you're going to send me to a AI generated Succession series, give me the live stage show with the real actors all day long. And you have to examine why. Because it's human. Right?

AR:
Right. And sometimes what it means to be human is elusive and not well understood, but nonetheless, we can tell.

MS:
Well, look at what... If you look at your feed on TikTok and Instagram and so on, all of the human value sets, nature around us, health and fitness, nutrition, food, travel, experiences, love, relationships. They're all, they've all been made premium. It's like we've unlearned everything. Do you see what I mean? We've unlearned how nature is beautiful, how to connect with nature, take your shoes off and walk in the grass. Oh, I feel really connected. Well, people knew that before.

Work hard in the gym, work hard at relationships. Work hard at work, you'll do well. Yes. Didn't we know that? How did we unlearn all that stuff? So I think the same is true of human narratives and human stories. I've got a quiz for you. I've got a quiz for you. What will people think? Which one of these five pieces is timeless? X, formerly known as Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, or storytelling? I was just going to say, why are we... It's almost like we've come full circle in our human experience. It's like, oh, if I eat greens and I eat tomatoes and don't drink sugar syrup, I don't feel sick as much. You know what I mean? The first thing I do is go out in the sunlight, because it makes me feel... My vibration. All this stuff, frequency. Well, actually, we knew that.

AR:
We're getting more in touch with our inner human, and it is ironic that we've gone so far and now we're coming back and it's like, oh, did you guys know? Actually, that leads me to my next question, which is what are your thoughts on what people are coining as the attention economy? In other words, and maybe you have a good definition for it that you can share with the listeners, but as I understand it, it's very important nowadays to garner and hoard almost attention so that whatever your message is, it's top of mind in other people's feeds.

MS:
That's a brilliant question. And to me, you've kind of answered it in the question. Hoarding, garnering, capturing. Those are all pretty mechanical, aggressive, land grabbing kind of phrases, aren't they in their nature? So ultimately, you can have 10 million views of whatever you like. What's the value? What's the value play? And we've got into this system of fantasizing over volume of attention instead of actually boiling that down to, again, human experience, human value transaction. What is the value proposition or a transaction between us? And what I would say is, the future, the immediate future, and that's what we're doing at Play Human, working on. The immediate future of media marketing, entertainment is about experience, not about attention economy. It's the experience economy.

AR:
Yeah. I think I've noticed an evolution, and I would love to hear your thoughts on this. I feel like I've noticed an evolution where we were seeing the rise of superstars on YouTube, for example. And over time a lot of people became famous to such a degree that there was less emphasis on the celebrity status and more emphasis on the quality of the content. And now I'm seeing algorithms kind of pick up no name people who are putting out quality content and less emphasis from people on celebrity and fame. Is that something that you're seeing also, or do you still think it's a bit tricky and it still makes a difference whether you're, quote, unquote, a celebrity in the space?

MS:
Well, funny, once I lost out, or we lost out a very high profile campaign with a very high profile champagne, and we were going to do all sorts of apps and interplay and virtual and real and community building. The opposition had George Clooney. And they got the contract. You see what I mean? So the point is, celebrity and hero worship and all that stuff will always be there. I do think, I mean, your point about YouTube and influencers coming to the fore, in the first round, and I was involved in all that. I used to work with Maker Studios and Fullscreen. And I've worked with, I used to be the manager of YouTubers.

I've put YouTubers in movies and all this kind of thing. And what it was, was the authenticity. And it was the access to your favorite creator. Now, that's why YouTubers initially got... PewDiePie you'll remember. KSI, when he was playing FIFA in his Jockeys with footballers. Famous soccer players. That was when he was authentic, et cetera. Most authentic. But now these guys, they're celebrities. It doesn't matter what they do. They were always going to be the pop stars or TV people or whatever. So actually it's this kind of, it's the micro influencers are still the ones that are authentic. Like the cottage industries type of mirror.

AR:
Micro influencer. I think that's a great term for... And it also makes it... One thing that's important to me, and maybe you agree, is I want more people to be creators. Because I think that humans intrinsically are authentic and everyone has a story to tell, and I just want to see more of it. And I am seeing more micro influencers, and I think that's really, really great for the industry.

MS:
Yeah, because look, the top 1% are always going to be famous. The top 1% are always going to make money. The top 1% are always going to get in trouble. The top 1% are always going to make mistakes like the oldest child. But actually it's the core 60%, are the ones you want look at. The people who have 5 million subscribers, not 50 million. The people who are creating content formats that challenge the industry. Those are the innovators, the game changers, the in-market experts. The money advisor giving you money advice from their kitchen table. That's really, really useful. Narratives that can make a difference in your life, not the woo-hoo of the top end. Which is entertainment, I suppose.

AR:
Yeah, I mean, they're too focused on churning out content.

MS:
Yeah, they've become less machine.

AR:
And I think overall, digital democracy is something that's on the up and up. You have a concept called line to circle. I was wondering if you could share that. It seemed really interesting. I would love to hear more about it.

MS:
Okay, well, for the audio listeners, you're going to have to use your imagination. But visually, just stick your finger out, Aimann. Now draw a line. So that's your book, isn't it? That's your movie idea. That's your documentary. That's your series. So what if we do this? We've just changed the way we think automatically in five seconds. Between having a book, a documentary, a film, a brand campaign, into something that's never ends. Okay? And it's no longer about the book, the podcast, the movie. It's about a set of values and themes that you want to communicate. You see?

AR:
Across all channels.

MS:
Across anything. And it doesn't matter. All of a sudden, it doesn't matter which channels are trending today. It's agnostic thinking from line to circle, right? Because, okay, now what's the next phase? You're not getting out of this. So you've drawn your circle. We'll draw multiple circles. So now you've got multiple layers and layers and layers of content formats and human experiences from your core set of ideas.

AR:
And you're intertwining them like a fabric.

MS:
Absolutely. And it's a beautiful way to put it. Now, here's the third one. Draw a spiral. That's kind of 3D, so you have to do that. Okay. All right, come on. That's it. Now you've drawn a spiral. That's the feedback loop with the audience. So suddenly your linear thinking, "I want to write a book, I want to make a podcast." No, you don't. You want to communicate. You want to share a set of ideas. And you think a book, you think a podcast, you think a movie is the way to do it. Now you've got a methodology that you can follow. And if I printed you out those five sheets with the images on it, you can start to draw what the content formats are. "Oh, I'll have a podcast, but I'll also do a livestream. But I'll also do a book. And also I'll create little brand books. I'll also do audience response pieces. I'll also do micro formats, mid formats, interactive, virtual, AR." Whatever, whatever, whatever. And then the importance of the loop. It's the feedback loop with the audience, right?

AR:
I love the, and I definitely think you should trademark it, but I think it should be called line to spiral. Because I love the idea of the continuous evolution. So the circle is never the same every time you're drawing it. It's kind of getting further away from the original, but it's evolving with your audience. I really like that concept.

MS:
Yeah. Look, Aimann, we've used this concept in our work for over 10 years. And it's in Play Human DNA. It's in our DNA at Play Human because we're not going to creators or big brands or media brands or corporate brands and saying, "We'll produce your content. We'll do marketing campaigns for your audience." If you want to do that, stick with the planning, stick with existing socials, stick with your agency, stick with your retainer deals. We don't want them. What we want to do is take what you've got and change it and rework it and reimagine it before we do new stuff. That, it will blow your mind. Then we can talk about the spiral and how your audience becomes part of the story.

AR:
What makes something go viral? What is it about an experience that you're sharing that makes people want to share it? I know a lot of different agencies have tried to capture what it means to go viral and try to make it a formula. And I think there's some tips that are well known in terms of how to keep people engaged. But I think that no one's ever really been able to capture the essence in a way that's repeatable. And I think that's potentially a good thing because it means that authenticity still matters a lot. And sometimes you can't invent that from thin air. You have to dig deep. So how do you view viral and how do businesses think of how to create a viral campaign?

MS:
Well, it's a funny one because even that phraseology to me is flawed. Viral means you can't prescribe it. Okay? Now, what you do mean, what agencies do tell you is that, "Well, we can bring you... We've got this formula and we'll bring you 60% of the way, and then we'll see what happens." So let me tell you, my guys over the years have reached probably tens of billions of views of everything. Which doesn't mean a whole pile, by the way. Again, it's the ratio. It's like, well, what's the return for the brand? That's what I would be asking. And actually, I have a problem with the whole paradigm. I'd actually like to flip it. So you change one person's life. Taylor Swift after a show can stream to 10 million people. And you'd feel quite happy about that and excited. Well, what if you flipped it and you said, I'm going to hit your play buttons now.

Hit your Play Human buttons, whatever it is, and actually change the paradigm. So I'm going to change Aimann's life alone, one-on-one, with your hero right now. Do you see what I mean? Now, you might get through a 100 people in one night. Every night for a year. And so you're changing lots of people's lives. It's just an experiment that we're doing at the moment. Now, the volume thing, the thing about virility, it's back to the storytelling values about empathy, about triggers, psychological triggers. Do you know I have done, or my guys have done content that's gone incredibly viral with kids involved swearing and doing the fingers. Because it was supported by data storytelling. Because the theme of the piece was about road safety, where the young male, typically young male culprit, doesn't listen to the government messaging, doesn't listen to the authorities talking down, otherwise they wouldn't be doing the driving at speed.

But they'll listen to their friends and their family most. But not even family, not even their spouse. It's the kids, "Daddy, please slow down. I don't want you to die." That sort of thing. They employ that in smoking adverts and anti-smoking adverts and so on. So there are emotional triggers, there are community triggers, there's empathy. And people talk about empathy all the time in digital. And authenticity. Well, I'm telling you now, authenticity isn't going on LinkedIn and telling us about your heart operation when you're four just to get likes.

You see what I mean? It's about... Authenticity isn't about ripping yourself up open and just spilling your guts about everything personal. You've got to hold some stuff back there. So authenticity is, from a brand perspective, is like, look, instead of the... You know when you get on a plane in the States and the TV screen comes down and the CEO of the airline comes and tells you how grateful... Well, that's a good example of what needs to change. So do you watch those? Does it hit you? Does it resonate? Do you feel that it's authentic and he really cares about his bonus. Right. So what I would put on the screens is people like you and me for number one, "Hey, we didn't think that we could afford the business class, but actually we did. Blah, blah, blah. And then we got bonus points. It was really cool, blah, blah."

AR:
I have an interesting anecdote to share about that. Speaking of plane videos, you know the safety videos on the airplanes, right? I think it was American Airlines that had a safety video, and it was clever and it was well choreographed, but it was very... It didn't feel authentic until the very end. Because at the very end when the woman who was the actress that they hired, she said the last phrase like, safety is what we aim for or whatever. All of a sudden after that point, all the people that were behind the scenes came out onto the stage and they all clapped because it was all done with one take or a couple takes. So it was very difficult. It was very challenging. So I noticed that moment as a moment where I connected with the actual humans that created this message of safety. And all of a sudden it wasn't a corporate message as much.

MS:
No. I will tell you, I mean, one of the videos that I use in my talks is actually the police woman... I don't know if you remember it. It was just a rant video. It was a vertical rant video where there had been racial discrimination and I think physical violence from police officers. And the police woman was just so disgusted at her colleague's behavior that she was at home and she ends up screaming and crying, "Take the badge off. If you're a racist, you hate people, you hate all these different ethnic groups, then take the badge off." So it told you about three things. It told you as a 40 something Black woman in New York Police Department, she had fought and fought to get where she was. To get where she was professionally, personally. She had a set of values that she thought were shared and were destroyed and diminished.

And so it wasn't a one-dimensional piece. It was multi-layered story. And you talk about, to finally answer your point about viral video, you have to have a wheel of triggers. It can't be just one trigger. It has to have a wheel of triggers. We were talking before off air about some of the incredible viral pieces on TikTok. Now, how to go viral on TikTok is a lot different. It's actually the stitching. So it's not just one video is just shared and shared and shared and shared. It's actually, Miley Cyrus talking like that. And then people do a stitch with their coffee machine.

As long as it's not cruel or nefarious or inappropriate, that is really, really fascinating type of theory. It's fun. And it's not particularly, it's not poking fun at Miley Cyrus. It's a bit of fun. Likewise, currently doing the rounds is the girl from England saying, "What does a DJ do anyway?" I know, I've thought it. I know you've thought it. What do they actually... All those knobs and things, what do they actually do? And they're going... Are they just playing something and that's it? And then so the community response in a fun way, again, has been to turn her into a track, what the DJs do, do, do.

AR:
I love it.

MS:
You know what I mean? So you're talking about virility. I mean, remember, it's all about those human factors, human triggers that make it go viral.

AR:
Want to take a step back real quick and talk about corporate. Which is, I feel like one of the issues in corporate is a lack maybe of storytelling. And I think in my work, my line of work is the digital transformation. And I always emphasize that digital is there to leverage technology to elevate the human experience. So it always starts with the user, the human. And I think that... Well, I want to know from your perspective, what can we do, what can companies do to enhance that storytelling and that authenticity both within the workplace and maybe in terms of how they deliver products and services to their clients? Because I do think it is all about storytelling, but I think they struggle a little bit with doing that because they get kind of stuck in the day-to-day.

MS:
That's true. So some of the most successful and biggest brands in the world knew years ago that they had to invert their brand. Now, I'll explain what that means. Inverting your brand is basically, instead of looking in the mirror, narcissists, right? Looking in the mirror and telling our brand stories, who are we actually talking to? Are we actually talking to our audience and our consumers, or are we just doing it for ourselves? And it's all very consistent and all the colors and the palettes and the messaging and the tone, and make sure we've got our diversity markers checked and we've got our... Make sure our brand guidelines are... Oh, yes, it's all very flowy and consistent, whatever. But actually the best brands knew a long, long time ago that they had to go, you are the brand. Sorry, I'm showing you my hands. You are the brand. Now, whether that is true or not, I think you can guess. I'm sure they're still in control of their brand, so don't worry. But you're at least offering it over and saying, look, we're going to have a two-way conversation with our brand story.

AR:
Because they're serving their customers. I mean, a company exists to serve.

MS:
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, look, simple things from the Coke bottle with your name on it. It doesn't sound particularly innovative, but that was incredible. Or Amazon, other people bought that, "Oh, you think about what..." Do you remember when that first arrived? Other customers read this book or read... And actually they're starting to connect up the experience by giving it up. It feels like it's sort of like a line turning into a circle, doesn't it even? You see what I mean?

AR:
We all come full circle.

MS:
Full circle. There you go. And so that would be point number one. It's incredible, the large corporations in all sectors that I've worked in that don't know their customer actually. And in many cases buy in the data when they need to find out about the customer. And that's incredible. Whereas the best brands know their customers. Know what they want, and they talk to them and they set up tools and narrative vehicles to have the two-way conversations. Some of the stuff that we've done, you would not believe what we've got up to and how we've used Facebook as a live focus group, for example. To find out what customers want. It's incredible. The stories that come back are incredible. And the version of this sort of self admiration versus this, is incredible. The difference is chalk and cheese.

AR:
Yeah. Well, that's really fascinating. I hope more companies really do see it that way. I think they need to pause and reflect to get there. And sometimes unfortunately, founders and executives, they don't have time or there's an illusion that there isn't time for that or that it's not important. And I really hope we get back to that. But as we wrap up here, I wanted to kind of tie it back to technology since this is a tech podcast. So I want to know what your thoughts are in terms of where you see the intersection of media, marketing and technology in the next 5 or 10 years? And feel free to be as wild as you want with your predictions. I'm just kind of curious to see what does someone like you think about the future of media and marketing?

MS:
So look, it's going to be a bumpy ride, let's put it that way. Okay? I think we're going to see a proliferation of AI fear. Which will miss the point. I think AI is going to, in terms of generative AI and all that stuff, that will just change workflows, change resource patterns, change the ability to create. And I think it's a positive opportunity. So I think we'll see a lot of new formats, a lot of new ways to create stories that are for the good. I think over the next five years, we'll come to a time where the idea of automation and data purges and this hoarding idea, the attention economy, that will come to a halt. I really do think that's going to come to a grinding halt. And I think we're going to then see the overlap with experience economy. Human experience. And because again, human experiences have not been linear for quite some time.

We don't live our lives as consumers or customers or whatever. Or as human beings in single silos like that. We live a sort of merged reality. Look at us now. From different parts of the world. So we're already digital humans. Don't forget that. We're already digital humans, and I think there'll be a balance out. So I think that the binary nature of the way that our world is running now, we have discovered some of the downsides politically using Facebook nefariously to create silos and echo chambers of hate. For example, one way or another, our inability to see the gray in life and see the gray between the zero and one, that will change I think.

Because actually all these other pieces driven by AI, metaverse, NFT, all this crypto, blockchain, all that stuff will settle down. Find its rhythm. And there'll be this kind of pathway. I mean, you mentioned five years. Well, I think it's a pathway. I think it's a pathway where things will start. I think the path will start to connect up a bit more, a bit better. And we'll stop tripping over ourselves so much.

AR:
Yeah, I think one of the amazing things about technology is that it gives us the opportunity to express ourselves more easily. Now, whether people use it the correct way or not is a different story, but it at least gives us that potential, and I think that's amazing. My last question is whether you had any words of wisdom for aspiring entrepreneurs or innovators who might be listening?

MS:
Yeah, look, I think when you work in creative technology, when you work in marketing, when you work in media or the convergence of all those pieces, it can get very overwhelming. Okay? The speed of technology now is faster than ever, and it will continue. So my advice would be stay human, stay authentic. Remember what human effect you're trying to make. Don't think about the tools, don't think about the channels, the platforms or anything else until you've worked out your human goals. Even if your human goals are, "We want 500,000 more people in the Dodger Stadium next year." Or, "We want 5 million more customers by lunchtime." It doesn't matter. Or, "We want to empower customer..." Whatever it is, it's a set of human goals and a set of human triggers. And then work back. So be platform agnostic. Be human focused, experiential-centric, and build your story from there.

AR:
Stay human, play human. Matthew Scott, thank you so much. This has been an awesome conversation. Where can people find you, either online or I know you have a website. So what's the best way for people to reach out and find what you're about?

MS:
Yeah, so we're playhuman.network online. Or on Instagram, playhuman_social, on Instagram and TikTok and X as it is now. They can surely find out there. And I'd love to speak to anybody who wants to talk about human storytelling. Yeah.

AR:
Awesome. Thanks again. I thought this was a really awesome conversation and the reminders that you shared I think even for myself, as someone who always talks about the user experience, sometimes I forget how important it is to just learn how to tell a good story. So thank you again for being on, and hopefully we can talk to you again and see what other new developments, and maybe five years from now, you can talk about how the robots are better storytellers than us. Who knows?

MS:
Absolutely. Well, hopefully not. Hopefully the robots will know their place.

AR:
Yeah, I think it's up to us. But thank you so much and we'll catch you around.

MS:
Thank you very much.

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